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RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Tue, 10 Mar 2009 13:06:12 GMT

Bornfree2arms:

In regards to your last 2 post's they reminded me of a lady who became a client of mine she was 85years old she had many stories of her life and how she had wasted 3/4 of it because she failed to see how important and valuable life really is, she said the turning point for her was that she had a heart attack and after that experience she never looked back, here she was at 64years old and felt she had been given another chance to see life from a different perspective, she said that she had never believed that she was deserving of anything good in her life, and that was what stopped her from living to ther full potential, so once she mastered her own self worth her life was full of the most loving and wonderfull experience's she never thought possible. She spent the last 28years a very happy fullfilled life and was so humbled by the share joy that surrouned her own being.

We all need a little help on our way in life your writings express alot of wasted moments that could've brought your own being so much joy, The rape case involving Louise and police is her own real life experience, the reason there was so much media involved was because of the perpatrators positions within the community.

Your day of being a victim of rape is your own journey and you are not alone when it come's to healing because all rape victims struggle with the aftermath, being payed out does not heal the process of being raped but when victims have to go to court as Louise did then of coarse she should be payed out because going to court as she did would of cost her own personal savings a packet so what little she receive's will be a well earned contribution.

The biggest most important thing for you is to stop living in denial face yourself and start the process of healing for I can assure you from my own personal experience your world is beautifull and it's such a shame your missing it all.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

bornfree2arms — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:41:10 GMT

the reasom know this to be true is, in 1999 =2000 i went to a reporter, of twenty twenty, and told them my complaint of the police not investagating my rape case properly. told the reporter. the whole story of what happened to me. they said they be out to see me and didn,t come. then rushed louise on tv of her rape she couldn,t remembers. saying she was first..and as they interviewed, louise they put what i told the reporter about my case. on her..when a women has a lot of sexal partners. in life, they get confused on who said what to them,and never get their facts hundred percent right. me and my family have suffered emmensely over this. but we aren,t inttled to conpensation . as the media and the nz goverment wanted it covered up..and when we do aply to the authorities for our rights to be heard. they are told not to take the case on.or they to busy. or they have other important things to go air with,.or they need a holiday and this all comes first with them instead, the injustice. and illegall actions of others..or they need to tell the public what they said there first. and they wonder why the next generations are confused and dismayed. by the system.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

bornfree2arms — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 09:40:54 GMT

louise nicholas is looking for a pay out now.

,the whole country is saying what ever comes to thier heads, and one who is brave enough to egagerate a situation. gets what they want,

. what they going to do next put louise nichlases life stye of the past on me, and put my life of honest and truth on louise, In 1995. i laid a charge of rape on the perpitrater. the police they told me there wasn,t enough evidance. and closed my files. with out a proper investagation. 4 times ive asked the police to have my files reopen and a proper investagation done.and they still ignoring it. if louise was known to the perpitrater who raped me at the age of 15, then there a lot more question to be asked on her case. did the perpitrater in my case.tell her to blame the police so his case would be covered up. the perpitrater in my case was known to the police,

so the wrong thats being done to me and my family over and innocent man being charge i nz courts with out anything said ihis defence verbally.then the police closing myfiles when advised by a councellor to lay this charges,

then louise goes public that she was raped.and because see atracted news attention she gets paid out, with parts of her story egagerated. and the ones who get there fact right. and tells the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth, rights get ignored,

now the news media is making out to the public that. david bains case was the mis justice case.. when one run around the public getting half truth about a situation, it could well be as well, but the news reporter should be carry part of the cost, as there facts they mislead the public causing confusion,as same as they did in my case. and then louse nichlas pops up so they decided to put all of others cases on her. and when the news reporter all go on tv yelling into the cameras saying what they said, and if a person in the public did this they would say they had to go to an anger management coarse, so why arn,t the tv reporter all told to do an anger management coarse

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

reddeath26 — Sat, 06 Dec 2008 21:10:38 GMT

louise (2/12/2008)

[quote] Hey reddeath awesome that you are considering a career within the education system.

Thank you, it is something I would really like to do. Although I am quite an idealist, so my perception of this career choice might be tainted by naivety and youthful optimism.

louise (2/12/2008)

I'm actually not sure at all of the support or lack of support a Male teacher receives on employment policy terms contract etc.

I am also unsure about the official support they receive. I am personally more worried about stereotypes and public perceptions. I am somewhat aware that as a male, this will make me more suspicious to some people. While it is a little unfair, it is the life's and safety of their children we are talking about so I can kind of understand.

louise (2/12/2008)

Experience with my own children attending preschool and primary etc have actually made me more aware of what any teacher is up against the paper work the never ending meetings of policy change's the importance to further study off there own back, the responsibility to there peers there students and most of all the parents.

Lol yeah I don't think this is a part which many people anticipate highly when entering this career. The state regulation is possibly something which will bother me quite a bit. I do not believe there is one size fits all with education and sadly with the state standardizing exams and assignments this seems like it will present a problem in regards to meeting the students wants and needs. In an ideal world it would be more about studying to understand as opposed to studying to remember.
[quote]louise (2/12/2008)

I choose to be an active parent in my own children's lives and worked with them to ensure that they were safe & secure my son daughter and youngest have a strong standing within there own right there education is not just about abilities to read write and count it is to also give them an introduction to there peers of all shapes size's and culture's.
[/quote]
Firstly I think it is great that you play an active role in your children's lives. I hope that if I ever have children (doesn't the thought of a little me scare everyone here?) that I am also able to play an active role. I am under the belief that when a parent/s participates in their children's education it enhances it and further adds to reach their potential.

I also agree with you that school is so much more than learning to read or write, the social side of it is also crucially important.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 23:59:19 GMT

[quote] In saying this, I absolutely believe that students should be in an environment where they feel safe and secure, with their rights being upheld. But I also believe it should be an environment where teachers are not constantly worried about how their actions are being perceived.

Hey reddeath awesome that you are considering a career within the education system.

I'm actually not sure at all of the support or lack of support a Male teacher receives on employment policy terms contract etc.

I really don't think that society is ready to be serious about every childs well being because parents are such complex ed clients and often place failure on education or outside influence's and fail to look at themselves.

If we were serious Male teacher's would be working without the fear and receiving a salary that match's the seriousness of employment.

I myself are truly thankful to all the teacher's who nurtured and feed my children's thirst but I beleive it is a two way role Parents have to get more active and attentive outside school hours and teachers need all the positive support they can get for our children are dependant on it.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

reddeath26 — Sun, 30 Nov 2008 14:14:26 GMT

[quote]louise (4/03/2008)

Just in reference to the lastcouple ofposts about Male teacher's,

I still find it difficult to forgive an education system that convicts an innocent person without investigating or proof let alone a court hearing.

I am referring to Peter Ellis.

Acommunity in denial is probably more harmful and almost impossible to breakdown and expose but what hurts is that standing together can be detrimental to a society on a whole because there denial has left our children withoutan equal amount ofMale teachers.

It is not worth any Male who wishes to pursue a career in early childhood education because the equality of the work placeis not up held in the same sense as it is for a female.

But as I said I have not forgiven such vindictive behaviours by a majority who have destroyed a Mans life because of there own fears and lack of understanding of homosexuality.

It is a fact and unlike David Bain Peter Ellis is just too average of an innocent person convictedfor anyone in the know to give a damn.

Shhhooocking, Verdict.[/quote]
I can certainly understand what you mean, as I myself am thinking about becoming a teacher. Ideally I would do a 1 year course at teacher college once I finish my BA. However just like you have mentioned I feel cautious to teach either in early childhood education or to females at high school level. I am hoping that the one year at teachers college could help with this. However like you have mentioned I feel like I would be going into an environment where my actions can easily be misinterpreted.

In saying this, I absolutely believe that students should be in an environment where they feel safe and secure, with their rights being upheld. But I also believe it should be an environment where teachers are not constantly worried about how their actions are being perceived.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 00:12:00 GMT

Just in reference to the last couple of posts about Male teacher's,

I still find it difficult to forgive an education system that convicts an innocent person without investigating or proof let alone a court hearing.

I am referring to Peter Ellis.

A community in denial is probably more harmful and almost impossible to breakdown and expose but what hurts is that standing together can be detrimental to a society on a whole because there denial has left our children without an equal amount of Male teachers.

It is not worth any Male who wishes to pursue a career in early childhood education because the equality of the work place is not up held in the same sense as it is for a female.

But as I said I have not forgiven such vindictive behaviours by a majority who have destroyed a Mans life because of there own fears and lack of understanding of homosexuality.

It is a fact and unlike David Bain Peter Ellis is just too average of an innocent person convicted for anyone in the know to give a damn.

Shhhooocking, Verdict.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Crossword — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 18:41:28 GMT

Agreed except he won't even get to the point of having a job.

Thats the problem. UNless as a group we stand up against these sorts of things we will see individuals persecuted.

The Herald ran an interesting piece today on principles wanting more male primary teachers but identified why there were fewer than %18 male teachers at primary level.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Ph4T4l1Ty — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:31:47 GMT

Crossword (4/02/2008)

How does a male teacher stand up for himself when he suffers a law suit.

By the conviction that he is innocent until proven guilty and by the mettle of his supporters.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Ph4T4l1Ty — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:09:21 GMT

Crossword (4/02/2008)

How does a male teacher stand up for himself when he suffers a law suit.

Recently a young guy moved into my flat (we have a very mixed flat) hes training to be a teacher. He was told how far he was allowed to stand next to girls or boys. Each school had its own standards about distance. This sort of policy (there were many he outlined) is a prime example of WHY its almost impossible to stand up for whats right. I spoke to my father (whom is also a teacher) and he said that the guys points were not only correct nowadays it was also the primary reason my father moved ot an all boys school because the PC behaviour and worries were far less.

People say well stand up. I have numerous times and its cost me my job in one occasion, another time I was beaten up by three street gang thugs. Until people as a whole stand up its not going to matter what as individuals we do. As individuals though we can lead by example of good behaviour vs bad, and bringing it to the attention of the society as a whole make people aware that in their views they are not alone.

Crossword,

I know where you are coming from. My Mother taught english for 56 YEARS!!, retiring in 1996 and all you have describred she foretold in the late 80's and because of the fear within of male teachers, our boys have no strong role model;s left thanks to the pc brigade, Sue Breadfords and the image that all male teachers are child molesters, and you can lay thast image firmly on the doorstep of the labour party, the greens and the pc brigade that suck up to them.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Ph4T4l1Ty — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:03:32 GMT

Thankyou for the reply, Shooter ,Louise et al. If my post seemed a little vehement and vitriolic, please dont misunderstand me, I love my country and all the people in it, even you sorry lot, lol. My point comes from a person who has lived a life of discipline that most Kiwi's will never understand, I am a soldier of this country thru and thru so in effect Ican only look at things with the preconditioned response that soldiers have, nieve maybe, but in the dark definitely not. Your Fathers service is something for your family and this country to be proud of but in todays New Zealand, people have forgotten what it is to be a Kiwi, thats the point i'm trying to make, in essence we have lost our backbone because of policy and not by our own choosing but by our apathy.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:28:29 GMT

Back in the good old day's granted in our community back in the 70's and 80's we sure did have a great community spirit and our value's seemed at the times simplistic and uncomplicated well for a young person entering adulthood.

My Dad who passed at the age of 85years wasn't a soldier but did go to the 2nd world war on a ship as an engineer, he spoke of those time's and what it meant for him, my Mum who is 80years and alive today spoke of those times and what it meant for her. Both of them experienced the fear of not knowing what the future would be but dad said that he never wanted any of us to go through the tough time's that they both did. That the opportunities that are here for us to have a productive life as long as we always know where are roots are from and we stand together as a family in time's of need. His origin's are Scottish and mum's is English and part Nga Tahu. My five Brother's are all very true to there father's wishes and have provided a fantastic life for there children and participate in community activities they have value of being much loved and purpose to be all that they can be for themselves and in return the benefits will be shared amongst all who cross's there path. My father told us all before he died that our ancestor's are very proud of us and that in his life he fulfilled his dreams and more because of his 59years of marriage and children. He said that his spirit will never be far away and being dead has many meanings so don't fear the path you walk without knowing that along with god I shall be.

He also said to Win a War is one thing to live peacefully after a war is a whole entire different battle.

Standing up as a Nation and reclaiming Nz back will be once again be determind by majority rule's, knowing what I know about today's people No thanx.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Crossword — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:48:17 GMT

How does a male teacher stand up for himself when he suffers a law suit.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Shooter — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:54:11 GMT

What a fantastic post! Well said. Couldn't agree more. Thank you

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Ph4T4l1Ty — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:50:50 GMT

Before i enter into this conversation, i would like to give you all a bit of an insight into myself so you will be able to understand where my point of view comes from.

I was born in late 1968, grew up in the 70's/80's when New Zealand still had a relative innocence to it. At 16 i joined the Army and served for 12 years including 4 active tours in Lebanon, Gulf War1, Somalia and Bosnia. After leaving the army i worked as a bodyguard for 2 international Prime Ministers and numerous celebrities. I returned periodically to NZ in 99/2001 and after 9/11, i have served regularly as a private contractor in Iraq and Afghanistan and now bit closer to home as muslim radicalism, is getting closer to home.

The biggest problem i have with MY COUNTRY is the people, not the govt of the time, govt's change, people's psyche's do not. Back in the day we used to care about one another, we were forthright, we upheld the law, we respected others, we were a strong nation, with good family values, a love for one another as kiwi's and a hope for the future. Now , alt of people blame the govt of the time for our i'll's but we only have ourselves to blame by letting the govt of the time turn our entire nation into a bunch of weak willed, illy livered cowards who only care about themselves and the useless pathetic immaterial trappings of being a newzealander in the Modern age. The average New Zealander should hang their heads in shame for what they have become, a bunch of self serving weak puppets, especially the males of this country. You have lost all it means to be a Kiwi male and as a former soldier whose entire male family members have fought for this country, an embarrassment to this country. I cant imagine what our war dead think of you lot when your crying into your lavender scented hankies on anzac day, they would probably vomit in disgust, ITS TIME FOR NZ TO STAND UP AS A NATION, MEN AND WOMEN ALIKE AND RECLAIM THIS NATION FOR ALL THE PEOPLE!!!

You have to cull the chaff for the wheat to grow

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Mon, 04 Feb 2008 11:38:23 GMT

I have just read the Ropati story and I find the whole case could've been avoided if the police had done there job to investigate thoroughly two people seem to of got off because of alcohol and drugs.

The victim should of been charged immediately once cocaine had showed in her urine test results.

Ropati should of been made accountable for simply not acting responsible and putting himself in a position of questionable behaviour.

Both of them should of been charged with wasting everyone's time it is a terrible circumstance for women when they are raped and this ordeal was more like self inflicting behaviour which has made a mockery of the meaning of Rape.

Could the police not distinguish the difference?

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Crossword — Sat, 02 Feb 2008 17:49:25 GMT

Personally I think the problem lies with a reliance on systems within governance by ourselves to provide answers.

If people were not so vulnerable to law suits and monetary compensation people would probably behave far more considerately AND far more accountably. While the idea of monetary compensation sounds a nice way of dealing with things, it means that many people now make victims of themselves so compensation can be given out. Consequently genuine victims suffer as their issues are pushed aside or held with a view of nonchalance.

A single governing party is not going to be able to make that change back- and the beauracracy of government is too entrenched to be able ot change os easily.

The answer lies in changing the status quo and legal system while encouraging a change in self accountability and responsibility.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Sat, 02 Feb 2008 16:49:24 GMT

It seems that in general there are only a few people who actually give a toss about the way our government structure is formed.

Bail terms change it back What?

It sounds like a practical choice but do the public have any idea exactly what all this once in place will be achieved.

I am finding that the Justice system is set up in a way that delivers verdicts that only apply to a few there is know consistency what so ever and our prison's are truly overloaded so instead of going backwards you go forwards and address exactly what offence is regarded to high priority and what can be dealt with on the terms of Bail. If Kahu was up on a charge of killing a public's servant's grandchildren because he happened to be going out with there daughter that boy would never never be granted bail no matter what.

There is a false reality here about our justice system and bail terms will not solve a damn thing it may sound very appealing but I can assure you Tax payers money would have far more purpose as the prison's toilet rolls.

Neither Party has come up with a plan to replace the justice system with a consistancy of Law an order and above all an order to reform the principle's that will ensure that convictions meets the measure of charge.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:33:24 GMT

I know that there is a lot of resource money available to action programmes like boot camps etc and I think like all American programme's the intentions are for a better future for society.

I would like NZ professionals who have studied such behaviours come up with there own programme and present it to NZppl nation wide for the essence and heritage should be focused on the NZ society only. Which I have to say that with the people I have met who advocate for the youth of today have a better understanding as to what will produce a breakdown and what won't. I believe that parents of all walks of life can struggle with constructive course's of consequence's and although the parents who try there best and go to parenting groups it is rarely the parents who need the groups that actually attend. I actually think that all the children who are in any cyps care foster situation or appear in youth courthouse parents should be the main focus and taken to a 12 week parenting day in day out programme with no exception as to what part of society they come from.

I really like the idea of the programme they will be introducing nation wide and that is to target children between 3years an onwards (antisocial) the results that have been produced in theory and practice in Tauranga seem to say this is something we need to embrace.

I embrace the education finishes at 18years for I believe today it is something that all families who have young adults that struggle with secondary school will find some relief. I am not sure how they will monitor or control youths of today from taking leave but I have to say that the education system has far better success in helping a family in crisis than when the youth is 16 at home on the dole and just thinking that the world is at there beg an call. I know that in today's world this age is crucial to hold boundaries and foundation's that will help the youth in the later adult world.

I was okay with both parties leader's speech's except that there is no relief for a student loan.

A mixture of relief on the dollar and healthy programme's would've been my actual decider for me as to who I would vote for so I am still no better off.

I still have question's as to how these will help with the evidence of victim culture roots go as deep to Government themselves. My faith that they will employ the right team to focus on bringing such programme's together is sitting at 4 out of 10, because as we should all know money and programme's have been working towards breaking-down youth behaviours for the last 20years this is not just something that has popped out of the bag. 20-25years ago there was Matua Whangi, Maori warden's, and they had a very high success of committing to helping the youth at that time the result were 99.8 percent so every 2 out of a thousand didn't work out. The funding was from local council, Housing NZ, lotteries, D.H.B unfortunately money was axed by government spending elsewhere, and boom the ppl who were doing such a great job were made unemployed and they actually tried to carry on but time and money was to a point of zero balance.

Any programme that is produced for the youth of today should be headed as a Family Unit and broken down in that way to avoid repeating the programme over and over again. Money has a tendency to be there but it is never an everlasting flow of commitment, so I guess for all who are working in this area it would be best to be bullet proof and to not live in hope but acknowledge that funding does cease so if you can plan for the inevitable not the right now.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Crossword — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:51:25 GMT

Louise,

First I don't feel you are singling me out, rather responding about things you believe.

Secondly sou're not alone. I am very critical of Labour's policies and I used ot be a very strong supporter of Labour's policies, but this was before they became involved in how we are ot use our own personal money- something no government has the right to tell its citizens- worse it has scaremongered and encouraged enviroments that make fiscal liquidity very very hard for most people. Trusts, Charities, and other non profit org's are now being addressed by our government to avoid tax 'abuse' . Labour hasn't empowered the people, but to be fair neither has any other political party. But the point is if National was in power and doing things like this I would be jsut as critical- potentially more so because National is more capitalist in fiscal policy traditionally.

I have become very cynical of politicians, and I would not make a great leader- because I would be far too honest and honesty doesn't get you far in politics. I was speaking with a client of mine tonight and he has been involved indirectly with the government on regular basis (he's a top lawyer) and even he said he can't understand how our society and our government's have fallen so low in the last deade- this gentleman is highly respected in and out of the legal fraternity, has done amazing community work and is recognised by many as one of the true ethical leaders of NZ law- and that was his comment.

Our continuing 'touchy feely' attitude has not raised children of integrity or strength- sadly, but has turned out gangsters and violent kids whom are still trying to test their limits, because as children they were never challenged. I was loved, and was looked after- my mother and father are both intellectuals, however they drew the line in the sand. Getting a smack on my butt never hurt me and the embarrasement not the pain would draw me into line. Kids these days haven't been getting those smacks and punishments because its not 'socially acceptable.' But the truth is those moments are where as children you recognise and learn your limits. That doens't happen any more, the kids we see are still testing their limits because no body has reigned them in yet- and sadly for many its simply too late.

This inability by our society to recognise that pain and accidents are a natural part of learnign to deal with consequences are the biggest par tof the problem- I am not suggesting abuse, beatings and other things are acceptable, I am saying that we do not give limits and consequences- and htis in my opinion is the biggest part of the problem.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Shooter — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:25:54 GMT

Great posts! The more I read, the more I live, the more I see, the more I listen. The governments all over the world are doing a crap job and one day soon the whole structure will fall and those gangsters (thats what I call them) will let people live their lives. We don't need them you know. They have made us all believe we do.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:11:53 GMT

Apologies for singling you out crossroads, you don't have to be a politician to make sense and I was just wanting a quick fix for me, I find it very hard to make a conscious decision on who to vote for because government itself is unable to front up to it's backlog of ideals and realities.

I believe that it's not wrong leadership in place it is to much leadership without a formal foundation and principle's of proper portion that can give a person within the public trust that if leadership has step out of line the principles will be enough for the opposition to bring them into line.

I have always felt that there should be a more formal accountability in place but I myself call it a collective conscious where it is more of along a power of documents made up collectively that directly give the government rule's above themselves for all that are in government. Sorry it is a bit hard for me to put to words as to what I mean.

Yes it could be called a constitution, and before anyone gets offended by that I actually think it is time for the government and people of NZ to rethink 40+ years ago and then make there decision.

We have a Government and public who by prefer a dominated National Ruling of government and the few time's Labour gets in we expect because they are Labour and what it stands for to clean up quick smart so National can give it another go . Granted Personal choice is a fact and it seems over the years leadership goes to National so for the opposition and the people maybe everyone would get a fear go if we have a power of written documents that will keep the leadership of government in line?

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 19:36:07 GMT

In fact I insist that you try and fit in becoming a political party and you do have a making's of a great leader!

You are right in all accounts about victims and I failed to see that choice's are what give's people equal opportunity just frustrates me that so many wasted opportunities are missed because of personal choice.

My expectations of my own life are far more important to me than other people's so I guess I am just as selfish as the billionaire or criminal.

Blimey isn't life full of twists and turns. Back to the grind board for me lol.

Hey I would even donate $995.00 to your campaign so I'd be free to tell people why they shouldn't vote for anyone else.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Crossword — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:48:12 GMT

Louise,

I think the point is what is working for you is working is because you take responsibility for your actions. And this should work for everyone.

How you reached this point was an individual choice and would not work for everyone. Taking everything into account is impossible because individual circumstance changes the perspective. But more importantly is not actually necessary for the individual. For example for me to improve the way I behave I don't need to understand what a person whom has been abused is going through or nor should I need to take that into account for me personally as I have never been abused.

As an example someone may rise up and improve on their life after great tragedy while others crumble. And yet both suffer exactly the same tragedy- their individual perspectives is what creates the resultant behaviour and this differentiates the difference between a victim and a person whom has simply suffered.

The governments place is not to set up legislation that encourages direct government involvement in our day to day lives, it should not be restricting or limiting the efforts of people to deal with adversity- but it does. Its role is to set up legislation that empowers and frees our people. The present and previous governments don't and haven't done this. The primary reason is because we as a people have become emotionally and consciously lazy. You can see it in the way people drive, behave and how little interest they take in politics. Alot of people simply vote on what they are told in the lead up to an election and few think of the broken promises or events that happened three years ago.

This behaviour has been directly encouraged by governments because it makes it easier to maintain power. Worse yet we only see real benefits to the people in the period running up to elections and this is very bad.

Examples of victimising behaviour by the government in these years.

Kiwisaver- Kiwis are simply incapable of working out how to save so lets set up a scheme which in terms of saving is not actually that good for the individuals involved or their employers. We don't teach financial responsibility or money management in schools- people don't understand the importance of liquidity over equity and this is the reason the government has had to come to Kiwisaver- its intentions are good but in truth in the long run build up a reliance on the government to bail people out- again.

Holidays- Rather than encouraging people to become fiscally responsible so they can afford the extra time off, lets put it on the employers so people can have more time off (the three week to four week increase)- even though presently NZ has one of the lowest productivity ratings in the world per hour worked. In other words hurt employers and reward people whom are not working as hard as people were a decade ago when three weeks was a good thing (remember this doesn't include the other 5 days we get as stat days meaning we actually get 5 working weeks off a year- only Germany has more but Germany also has the highest productivity in the world besides Sweden and Denmark).

These two things alone have been sited by many industries as the primary reason wages are low. According to many commentators and industrial sources this has added %3 to the bottom line wages (am guessing one more week a year also means another person has to hired during that extra period)- meaning profitability drops- which is where wage rises come from. The present profit margin on most small business according to the business round table and statistics NZ is between %5-9. So after these increases- a business's profit margin drops to %2-6. If I invested 70,000 in a business I would require a minimum return of $4,900 to remain competitive with banks. A business selling for 70,000 would require a minimum turnover of $140,000 (low margin business) to $175,000 (high margin business). This would mean a profit after the governments changes of $2800 - $10,500. Previously this would have been $7,000- $15,750 making a low margin business viable- now simply only high margin (high risk, high compliance) are good investments. And guess what- most small business is low margin- only larger companies can make high margin profits meaning it is harder to make your own destiny- your business. You are now reliant on large multi nationals.

Buy NZ made campaign- great idea and something I support actively. However the government doesn't tariff goods made off shore. In fact because we are so eager to get into foreign markets we even subsidise some goods. NOw this isn't necessarily a bad thing- but while wages are low and small business is discouraged by employment and compliance legislation only large companies can really produce (unless someone is willing to make less money that a bank can guarantee them.) goods- and they mostly out source them- ie pay for Chinese and Indian made goods. In other words a slowly decreasing circle. A further foot step to isolating and shrinking NZ's self direction role.

NZ just got voted the least affordable place in the world to buy a house. We even beat out the US and Japan because of wage structures. NOw the governments reaction is to put Kiwisaver in place to help first home buyers. Except no first home buyer on the average wage can even afford the deposit because the day to day living costs are too high to save large amounts of money. IE rent is high also because of the requirement by landlords to get a competitive return on the value of their property.

Governments have encouraged people from overseas to buy houses as an investment in NZ- what this has in fact done is drive up the value of property (which has low liquidity but high equity return) beyond the means of most New Zealanders. The year before last we saw 50 year mortgages being offered. You pay four times the value of the property.

Further victimisation of NZ people.

I can name so many other policies. What NZ needs is a society that makes itself responsible. if a kid gets a drunk driving conviction make him do social work in a paraplegic's ward for DIC accidents- I have seen some good policies with regard to this a new program by the police doing this sort of thing seems to be paying dividends. Employers should not be punished for having individuals behave poorly but are impossible to fire because of legislative structure. Sueing employers should not be made a lucrative possibility as has happened in several cases in the last year. In other words the government should not be encouraging poor behaviour and victim behaviour through the introduction of legislation that can be abused in such a method.

I can name many other policies and actions by governments that work for the short term gain of NZ but not the long term.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Sat, 19 Jan 2008 20:00:55 GMT

To rectify an obstacle you cannot reach an achieved goal without taking all matters into concern.

To say that this is not about a life is wrong crossroads for without the right ingredients the purpose of that life can go terribly wrong.

For me Crossroads it is simplifying strategies so that in general we can all give life our up most efforts and understanding to all that is around us.

Education is only a means of what the victim culture create.

Government is only a means of what victim culture create.

The voter's are from a background of victim culture. Without the voter's government and education is an illusion.

Can you say that clearly knowing what you know about victim culture you can trust that all can be achieved to breakdown the cycle that manifests in NZ culture.

Balance is missing in anyone's life that has turned into themselves and refuse to shift the negative motive.

Now as much as we all refuse to be accountable for another behaviour is about as helpful as Governments new policies lately.

Until there is a general acceptance that people in our communities need guidance help and most of all positive focus on not repeating the same old sentence we will carry the burdens of many.

Of coarse crossroads this is as positive as I can get for the moment and it is only briefly touching on my own valuable points.

I still do Tai chi and in the 90's introduced Reiki in my everyday life I would never stop it is something I have found a passion for.

It is absolutely essential for all of NZ people to invest some time into hammering out a plan for there community to rid of such self obsessed aggressive behaviour but you have to be prepared to be on a equal realm and believe collectively that your plan is the right one.

Government can be a highly productive service but not until the voters actually get the gist of the importance of there own lives.

You sow a seed you nurture the seed and basically the outcome won't happen if you don't get the right nurturing. Lesson's don't have to be complicated nor does life.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Crossword — Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:15:17 GMT

How do you balance the life of a kid whom is responsible for the attack on that couple on the North shore.

" Have you met a real ganster?"

This isn't about life balance, its about a failing level of accountability and responsibilty by the individual involved and those that supposedly have guided these youths - be they parents or otherwise. I did Tai Chi for 5 years and I agree it helps provide clear thought- but balance comes from an inward understanding of positive and negative growth- something this government and many citizens like covered in confusion.

Government policy as an example- Discipline your kids but don't use physical force. The child soon learns they have the power. If the parent uses techniques like leaving them , or forcing them into a room, many worry about child services view point- particularly if they are an already at risk group. SO what happens? We end up with kids whom wield physical force against their teachers- a cirriculum more worried about cultural ideals than concerned about teaching kids the basics. Literacy is appaling - some youth even apply for jobs in txt language- which is now acceptable in Form5/ Year 10 exams. Overall the desire by some to remain "in touch with youth' has in fact caused a huge issue. In truth it is often a denial that those of age even though often more consevative have ideas and opinions that would hold true and valuable irrelevant of era or age.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:17:19 GMT

How about this we have a victim society created by unwillingness to accept the pitfalls of our own journey in life?

The benefits of balance perhaps means more to a child's education than straight out lesson's on basic topics.

Adults may find that using a balanced diet not only in food but all things which perfects there quality of life may bring new perspective in there life's journey.

I guess for me personally I know all to well that finding a balance in my own families life has been at times a struggle but I must admit once achieved the benefits for my children and our well being has given us a joyful time there isn't a lot of drama's and a heap of laughter when we all get together.

When I was 17 I met a lovely person who was a Martial Arts instructor his passion for Martial of Arts lead me to Tai Chi and in the early 80's my pairs all laughed at me but I found the whole concept to work in my favour. Absolutely started to lift my spirits gain confidence and my work place my home life my social life just seemed to mould into a beginning and ending of much appreciation around me.

I have many incidents where all has not gone to my liking but they never made me feel any kind of negative feeling's that would not resolve if not immediately within 1/2 hour.

Many of my peers have balance in there life and it is not through Tai Chi it is through something that they have found works for them one of my peers loves cooking and once he took an interest he was hooked and learnt many things about the importance of ingredients. He applies it to his balance of life and it certainly works for his family.

Radical behaviours do give society a short sharp wake up call but I think that many answers to obstacles that stand in a communities well being could find solitude and substance in balancing all matters out on the table and then processing in a manor that is going to produce a projection that has taken past present and future into deep consideration.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Crossword — Sat, 19 Jan 2008 14:59:28 GMT

So maybe it is a relationship of issues regarding the media and the government and the way the media sensationalizes issues then the government has to react in a "we're not to blame way..so and so is."

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Shooter — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:29:48 GMT

Just thought I'd get back to original post ....which I really liked and have really enjoyed the debate between you and Louise

Crosswords original post in blue.

When I was a kid we accepted mistakes happen. Sometimes these mistakes and accidents were tragic other times they were simply lessons we learned through making errors.

Yeah but we took responsibility for our actions. We had to.

Has NZ in your opinion become a society where we look to everyone else for the excuse or blame of why something bad has happened? Yes because the blame game is created by government departments who not only create the division of right or wrong, they enforce the rules and eventually create exactly what we all don’t want.

IN car accidents we now examine them so thoroughly the MoT will happily hold up cars for 8 hours, even though it could be something as simple as a bit of oil on the road. Probably do learn from these however I see that point to. Remember that all the people on those scenes are all paid by tax payers so at the end of the day they can take there time. (Not that I don’t respect what they do because I wouldn’t do it)

When someone gets badly hurt in a rugby game there is a full investigation to find if anyone added to the liklihood of the injury occuring, be that players or ref's. Yeah but that’s because ACC is involved (yet another dept)

Male teachers can't teach without suspicion of ulterior sickening motives, and have to be careful of physical contact with younger children for fear of prosecution or ongoing suspicion. Women have done this (they run a fair bit in the education sector – yet another govt dept)

There is no doubt that sometimes there is reason behind these investigations but these days it seems every single person that has something bad happen to them needs someone to blame, rather than accepting we make choices and sometimes those choices lead us to bad places. Government run and created once more.

Have we become a culture that is so insecure we need to blame the consequences of our actions and decisions on others rather than face up to them? No we are a country who allows others to create rules we don’t want by people who don’t live in the real world. I’d say we simply are all too scared to stand up and face the music because the world they have created for themselves has become so vial that you simply wouldn’t want to do it. The press has a heap to answer for which as we know ultimately is just another govt dept.

I believe we have become this culture.

When I was younger I remember if you did something criminal, and were caught, you pleaded guilty not to get a shorter sentance but because you did it. Now we don't. Honor!

Politicians argue their ways through an investigation when in truth they should've resigned from the start. You said it!

Employees and Employers screwing each other over because they can get away with it and justify it with " Well the (other party) is to blame because of...." All created by them wouldn’t it be lovely if we actually had a strategy for our country that everybody could live with.

No-one ever says " I started it, I am to blame, I am accountable for this." anymore and this is a sad state of affairs to be in. The press would kill you. We don’t stick up enough for a kiwi battler until he is a winner…: then it seems we are all his friend. I bit shallow really. Frankly I love New Zealand. But we need some leadership who cleans the place out and starts fresh! We need to make some radical changes in our thinking.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:05:10 GMT

Excellent many thanks for your enthusiasm and patients with this topic, crossroads.

I do have issue's with alcohol mainly because of where I have chosen to work, I lost a lovely friend to a drunk driver a cousin to suicide and the irony of the story was he gave up drinking did the 12 step programme and life was starting to pan out for him then he fell off the wagon spiraled into oblivion and took his life, I know that alcohol was only one factor that led him to his own death but it was a significant factor for sure.

Yes you are absolutely right about cigarettes and some smokers are very inconsiderate even tobacco smokers to others around them I actually got the gist of that and I have no problems with the laws that have come in to protect people who don't smoke.

Just found this little bit of info,

Even with all this evidence before us, it is still difficult to conclude the exact effects of alcohol consumed by the male. Comparing some studies is difficult because of limited subjects and loose controls. Also, a study carried out in England showed paternal drinking to be unrelated to predicting birth weight in humans. Dr. Sterling Clarren, a top researcher in the field of studying the effect of alcohol on a fetus, says that "it is possible but not yet proven, that alcohol does alter sperms."

With all this said, a male should still really think twice before reaching for that mug of beer or glass of wine. Not only are you hurting your body, but you could be affecting the lives of any future children. Alcohol consumed by the male before conception can cause birth defects, so plan ahead if you are wanting to father a healthy child. You could be doing more harm, both to yourself and others, than you think.

Ouch I have deleted my original ending of this post when editing this little findings. apologies.

But my ending was to basically light heartedly wanting to get us to get back to your original Question R we a victim society or not. Right from the start I believe so, Just not clear in my mind exactly what that means

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Crossword — Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:11:08 GMT

Because those scientists are talking about pure tobacco and the healthiest way to smoke such a thing is through a pipe not a cigarette.

Cigarettes contain and produce far more negative effects than the benefits they provide. Cigarettes contain sulphur dioxide, carbon dioxide, cyanide, arsenic and multiple other poisons. Tobacco by itself is not the problem. Cigarettes are. There is a huge difference.

The studies you highlight are specific in discussing smoking tobacco- not smoking cigarettes. The doctor involved is also involved with tobacco companies so there is some question of his findings being unbiased- however irrelevant there is enough information to suggest that tobacco and nicotine do offer some benefits.

I should also point out that the benefits of smoking tobacco are far outweighed by the health risks specifically linked to cancer, heart disease, strokes, and stomach ulcers.

With regards to MJ, I personally don't have an issue with people using it, I just hate the fact that people smoking directly affects my enjoyment and enviroment. As a non smoker I can't find a place to eat outside because the smoke is so bad.

I am aware that MJ provides some of the best pain remedies in the world and helps induce appetite not just in AIDS suffers but also cancer patients going through chemo and radiation therapy. I was just pointing out the irony in your argument, because it has also been linked to depression, increased in brain disorders, lack of motivation and other social issues including an in balance in endorphins (often leading to clinical depression and sometimes pyschosis.).

Also men drinking has no impact on their childs development in the womb of their wives. Alcohol doesn't alter the genetic structure of sperm. Alcohol does however in large amounts effect their sperm count. Alcohol fetal syndrome is caused by the undeveloped fetus absorbing alcohol directly in their blood stream - ie the women drinking while preganent.

Alcoholism is a disease of addiction and while there are genetic and social markers any individual can prevail over a disease of addiction IF provided with the right support. The problem is many people simply don't want to change because then they have to work hard ot change their behaviours. IE they are lazy. Someone prone to addiction tends to also be someone whom has little structure in their lives and at a moment of high stress looks for an outlet- in the case of alcoholism it becomes alcohol. For others its compulsive spending, violence, drug abuse, over sleeping, over eating etc... And this is what leads to the problems you have highlighted- an inability to deal with a stressful circumstance.

With regards to moderate drinking- there is no specific formulae- thats just what is suggested. Intoxication can cause harm to ones self especailly if it occurs to often - however most people are capable of occasionally getting drunk and not damaging anyone outside a hang over. I personally don't enjoy that level of drinking but some friends of mine do, as do some of the greatest artists and authors of our time. Alcohols primary issue is that it is a depressant, you depress your inhibitions, your reasoning and other factors.

As for its illegal to grow or smoke marajuana, you can get medical dispensation from the government.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:08:55 GMT

I got this off www.forces.org/evidence/evid/therap.html you may have to type this in yourself sorry.

Total silence from the antismoking mass media droids, of course, on this pivotal, long-range study that shows yet another benefit of smoking. The reasons are obvious, and they need no further comments. If the intention of "public health" is to inform the public about the consequences of smoking on health as it proclaims, why don’t we see "warnings" such as: "Smoking Protects against Parkinson’s Disease," or "Smoking protects against Alzheimer’s Disease," or "Smoking protects against Ulcerative Colitis" and so on, alongside with the other speculations on "tobacco-related" disease? Isn’t the function of public health to tell the citizens about ALL the effects on health of a substance? Obviously not. "Public health," today, is nothing more than a deceiving propaganda machine paid by pharmaceutical and public money to promote frauds, fears, and puritanical rhetoric dressed up in white coats.

Honest scientists have always known that smoking has some benefit. From the apparent shielding effect against Parkinson's and Alzheimer's diseases to the more intangible benefits associated with well-being and tranquility, smoking tobacco in many ways is definitely good for your health.

I found this article very interesting. Money above all is one of the most unhealthiest motivators in the world.

I stand by what I say too crossroads the only reason Marijuana is not amongst us is because there is no billion's of profit as a motivator like tobacco and alcohol.

Though moderate alcohol use seems to have some health benefits, anything more than moderate drinking can negate any potential benefits. Moderate drinking is defined as two drinks a day if you're a male under 65, or one drink a day if you're a female or a male over 65.

What counts as a drink?
A drink is defined as 12 ounces (oz.) of beer, 5 oz. of wine or 1.5 oz. of 80-proof distilled spirits. Again, keep in mind that people age 65 and older shouldn't drink more than one drink a day. With increasing age, adults break down alcohol more slowly, leading them to become intoxicated more quickly and increasing alcohol's damaging effects.

So tell me how many pubs would stop serving a customer who is over the moderate limit?

Because the fact is anymore and they could be at risk putting there health and social behaviour in jeopardy.

Why is this not written in all place's that sell alcohol for clients to see and after there moderate consumption, why are they not sent away because they could be a walking time bomb.

It is not as though you can say oh I didn't drink for a week so I can have 10 glass's in the next 12 to 24 hours that would put a person in the class as Binge drinker.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:23:28 GMT

Yes I kind of knew that my last post was going to be hammered by our dear crossroads.

I apologise for not being spot on with NZ once upon a time use to be theories I was told that by my father and never actually thought he would ever be wrong so never looked for evidence since I was 12 I have always been pretty proud of that fact and told many of my pairs at the time, no one ever corrected me so guess that's one fact I shall not take to my grave.

Now the essence of my post is different to yours crossroads because I don't have the ability to store facts and figures away as you do, my type of knowledge comes from experience and working matters out from a different angle I am more productive with touch and feel. (and I don't mean physically) it is a sensory system.

Alcohol is very destructive to a fetus and I will not relent because many women and men years gone by have produced children and the child may not of been physically deformed but the alcohol has made that child go through life as an alcoholic. Those children unknowing to society at the time grew up and had there own children and well the cycle in the sixties and seventies have produced a full blown alcoholism. Now granted not every women drank during pregnancy but how many men may have been drinking before conception?

I don't trust factory orientated place's that produce any drugs on high levels but that is just me I do realise that.

The worlds three freest economies are HongKong,Singapore,Australia.

As for the benefits of alcohol just because this has been an acceptance through out the world of part of our culture does that over rule the fact that alcohol has played a major benefactor in our social behaviour.

A group of people have a good time hurt no one been responsible having a few drinks, but in the moment 1 has died on the road 1 is born with a defect and several are being arrested for domestic violence, several are being thrown out of pubs, several are being sick in the taxi several are cooking up a storm and whoosh there's a fire. The dollar is apart of this if you take the alcohol out of your restaurant would your takings be up average or down?

Marijuana now I may be wrong but I think that biologist are looking into the drug to see if it can help with MS of coarse that is just a blink off the TV so please don't be offended if I am wrong. oops I am wrong. Here is some documented facts.

Fact: Marijuana has been shown to be effective in reducing the nausea induced by cancer chemotherapy, stimulating appetite in AIDS patients, and reducing intraocular pressure in people with glaucoma. There is also appreciable evidence that marijuana reduces muscle spasticity in patients with neurological disorders. A synthetic capsule is available by prescription, but it is not as effective as smoked marijuana for many patients. Pure THC may also produce more unpleasant psychoactive side effects than smoked marijuana. Many people use marijuana as a medicine today, despite its illegality. In doing so, they risk arrest and imprisonment.

There is no convincing scientific evidence that marijuana causes psychological damage or mental illness in either teenagers or adults. Some marijuana users experience psychological distress following marijuana ingestion, which may include feelings of panic, anxiety, and paranoia. Such experiences can be frightening, but the effects are temporary. With very large doses, marijuana can cause temporary toxic psychosis. This occurs rarely, and almost always when marijuana is eaten rather than smoked. Marijuana does not cause profound changes in people's behavior.

Marijuana I liked it because I knew where it came from and it was not from a source that was making money off it. I didn't like all the social rubbish that went with it though and yep just gave it a miss. When I was 38 I decided to have a drink I mean a proper drink a whole glass of alcohol and yep it is was OK gin and tonic but when I look at what it has done to the several foster children that have passed my path I sort of think yuck not so nice.

There is an addictive point within any drug including Marijuana not everybody is effected but the ones who are live a life not only at the mercy of professional help but family members friends and of course groups who support each other, the sentence they take is a life long one and the falls to actually reach the point of acceptance is hell for not only that person but everything around them.

I am defending the individual person because there is too much evidence to say that it is the individuals fault, lack of respect lack of responsibility, at the very first stage's and there is many it is the actual drug however by the time the damage is done the individuals behaviours and characteristic's have changed and they have a mountain to climb before they can actually recall themselves and face a new life for themselves and this can happen with any drug, and any individual, but more prone is conceived babies who's either parents had indulged in alcohol & classA drugs. And as you have said alcohol has been around for centuries.

Tobacco is a more passive drug and although it doesn't create immediate mountains to climb it is not something one can just stop therefore is addictive and a person who once like the taste is now an addict. So the individual is not able to take responsibility unless they seek help. However like drinking some are effected and some aren't for it has been known that people who smoke can turn there backs on it just like drinkers.

Alcohol drank in moderation for some is OK.

Smoking in moderation for some is OK.

Smoking marijuana is illegal caught in posession will lead to a criminal record.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Crossword — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 18:58:57 GMT

Firstly NZ has never been the 2nd wealthiest country in the world. Its highest rating was third on the OECD community which at the time of the rating excluded the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Indonesia, Singapore, Taiwan and numerous other countries including Saudia Arabia, Iraq and Iran all of whom were far above us on GDP per capita (the rating we were judged on).

Presently NZ is ranked second in the world for economic freedom.

Alcohol exists not because of $$$ but because it has been an important part of every culture. IN particular English, Maori (whom brewed titoki and other alcoholic drinks), Polynesian, French, German- in other words our founding fathers.

As for alcohol fetal syndrome that furthers my argument that if someone is stupid enough to drink, smoke, eat raw or under cooked meat and so on during preganancy they don't really deserve the right to have children as while a child is at its most vulnerable they are abusing it and themselves. IE the ability of the individual to determine if drinking is wise or not. In other words I refer to my intial post in this thread- NZ has become a victim society.

I used the other nations comparisons because frankly they have had a culture heavily influenced by alcohol and yet manage to maintain impressively civilised cultures with absolute minimal effect. In other words a huge contrast to your argument. The reason why NZ suffers so hugely from the culture of alcohol is because we don't police or act responsibily on anything to do with our own actions which reinforces my point from the start.

Its ironic that you mention marajuana when its been linked with mental instabilities, depression, alzheimers, Parkisons, not to mention huge social issues including lack of motivation. I haven't mentioned criminal issues because legalisation of the drug would probably remove it. But NZ has constantly proven that any time a loosening of laws occurs our society is unable to behave responsibly so the liklihood of another Amsterdam with its minimal drug issues is highly unlikely as has been seen with the lowering of the drinking age. Many NZers (not all) are simply unable ot behave responsibly.

My initial argument still stands- having a drink in moderation does not hurt anyone, and has been proven to have minor health benefits. Smoking doesn't have any benefits and has been proven to terriblly damaging to the individual and others around them.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:16:19 GMT

It is not a battle between smoking and drinking crossroads it is a fact that alcohol is a detrimental drug and having a glass a wine a day may make life expectancy to last longer however culture, victim culture is the question here. You tell that to an unborn child who has obvious defects caused by a glass of wine a day that his innocent life expectancy will last longer.

I believe that society pays tax's which gives them the right to have safe products on the market that are not harmful to there productive being.

Research suggests that the powers of government and experts in Biology all knew the consequence's of these drugs and for me I find that more of an argument than people's individual choice. It would be rather naive of us all to believe that there wasn't an actual expert who didn't raise warnings and give scenario's of the outcome for society.

Now for me the picture is clear $ is the motivator for all these drugs to exist in the form that they are available and to make a few wealthy out weighs the importance of weather it is good for our society or not.

We are all victims to the miserable $$$ it brings us all to a standstill because conquering the needs and measures of what the dollar can do for our immediate position far out ways the long term effects of a society in crisis.

NZ culture is not going to get any better by comparing it with another culture NZ climate NZ behaviour NZ economy has been on the decline for decade's we use to be the second wealthiest country after the 2nd world war now we are the 18th.

When you give reason's for why smoking is more detrimental it is all very true, but the bigger picture is that money billion's out weighed the importance on the effects on our people.

I do believe that balancing out the importance of the dollar has to be looked into before our NZ people can start breathing clean air we advocate as being green but yet we export coal to china if we cared about the environment we would not do this because China for peaks sake ask yourself what do they do with it burn it. Motivation at the end of the day is not a safe well balanced individual life it is the $ and at the consequence's of all Live's around us.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Crossword — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:54:14 GMT

Firstly it has been medically proven that a glass of wine a day WILL IMPROVE YOUR LIFE EXPENCY according to the FDA, University of Medicine, Auckland and many other institutions. In some countries it is safer to drink wine than the water out of the taps and these nations suffer less issues than countries that are far more miopic in their view of Alcohol. Examples Italy , Spain, France, Germany vs US and Canada.

In France , alcoholism is a major issue, but drug dependancy of harder drugs, domestic violence, obesity, cancer, violent crime and destitution are all far lower than those within the US and Canada.

In NZ I would suggest the tap water is awful in some parts and pretty good in others. I hate Auckland water after drinking bore water from Ohope.

I quote from your previous post-

Low to moderate doses of alcohol can also increase the incidence of a variety of aggressive acts, including domestic violence and child abuse. Hangovers are another possible effect after large amounts of alcohol are consumed; a hangover consists of headache, nausea, thirst, dizziness, and fatigue.

All of these are resultant of the individual. If someone behaves aggressively and it leads to domestic violence and child abuse then the issue really lies with THEIR inability to be able to behave responsibly. There are far more people whom drink and don't go home and beat their wives or girlfriends up than do go home and behave so poorly. A hangover is a sign of dehydration and poisoning- IE drinking in excess which I have not condonned at any point. I have said in moderation.

I have had 5 hangovers in 18 years of drinking, have never hit anyone and have driven drunk (408 blood level- legal limit is 400) once after my sisters wedding in 2000. I was driving to get some food so it is probably this hunger that contributed. I pleaded guilty and have never driven after drinking even one drink since.

Yes alcohol in small amounts leads ot loss of co-ordination- so to does eating to many mushrooms, blue cheese, incorrectly cooked meats and many other things. How one behaves after this occurs is what determines an individuals response and ability to handle aclohol consumption.

I don't dispute that alcohol causes problems (I have outlined this in my previous post) but these are caused by individuals not by alcohol. IE if someone is prone to hitting their child drunk, they are prone to reacting with violence in a stressful circumstance from the outset. IE the alcohol is what lowers the inhibititions of the individual. A high stress circumstance causes similar effects.

Its one of the reasons when the All Blacks loose that domestic violence increases by more than %15 around NZ. Its not the alcohol its the situation that draws that reaction. If they weren't drunk they may not behave so but in a more stressful circumstance they may behave so without alcohol providing the excelerant. In other words- if someone is prone to violent behaviour drunk, they are prone to violent behaviour sober.

Drinking is just a method of outlet for such people rather than a method of enjoyement and that is an important pyschological point. If one drinks for enjoyement it means they remain positive. Positive people will not behave violently. If drinking for an outlet, it means people have an underlying frustration that they can't deal with sober. And that is a large problem of the individual.

I have seen far more positive social behaviour by moderate drinking ( two drinks over two hours per two days is what moderate means) than I have ever seen from non drinkers and from heavy drinkers.

Smokers on the other hand offer nothing. There is not even empheric evidence that smoking offers any benefit what so ever on any level- while some claim stress relief, the truth is the physical addiction to smoking pushes their ability to deal with stress down, making it harder when a stressful circumstance arrives. Consequently by smoking the 'appearance' of decreased stress occurs when it is in fact just the body getting what it phsyically craves. It is apparent in heroine, P, and alcoholics. IE it is a process of an addictive personality rather than a true 'stress-relief'. Comparing this to alcohol which lowers blood pressure and in moderate amounts increased endorphine release smoking increases blood pressure and lowers oxygen intake inhibiting endorphin release. Hence a craving for a drink after a stressful circumstance has less to do with the 'hit' (pyschological impact) of alcohol and more to do with the effects on the body.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:48:46 GMT

Alcohol, even at low doses, significantly impairs the judgment and coordination required to drive a car safely. Low to moderate doses of alcohol can also increase the incidence of a variety of aggressive acts, including domestic violence and child abuse. Hangovers are another possible effect after large amounts of alcohol are consumed; a hangover consists of headache, nausea, thirst, dizziness, and fatigue
.Prolonged, heavy use of alcohol can lead to addiction (alcoholism). Sudden cessation of long term, extensive alcohol intake is likely to produce withdrawal symptoms, including severe anxiety, tremors, hallucinations and convulsions. Long-term effects of consuming large quantities of alcohol, especially when combined with poor nutrition, can lead to permanent damage to vital organs such as the brain and liver. In addition, mothers who drink alcohol during pregnancy may give birth to infants with fetal alcohol syndrome. These infants may suffer from mental retardation and other irreversible physical abnormalities. In addition, research indicates that children of alcoholic parents are at greater risk than other children of becoming alcoholics.

I totally agree that smoking is a selfish choice and the Physical effects on society are detrimental.

Thought a few wee facts on alcohol may be of significance as well. I wouldn't want people to think that alcohol is not damaging for it is. The brain and kidneys and pending on size of the person it really doesn't take much for the alcohol to damage both.

You only have to see a new Born's defects caused through alcohol to see that alcohol itself is a lethal drug and to say it is the individual and not the alcohol is not true, there is to much evidence about alcohol to put it up with one of the most destructive drugs within society, alongside class A drugs, glue sniffing and yes tobacco.

The individual at first acts selfishly however a drug of any form has a huge side affect ADDICTIVE and that my friends is when the consequence's becomes societies financial and emotional burden.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Crossword — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:37:01 GMT

First,

ITMXXX,

I think you will find that smoking is the leading contributor to NZ's highest killer- High Blood pressure and Heart Failure.

I think you will find that smoking is a direct contributor in three of the top five medical killers in NZ.

Lung Cancer and breast cancer.

And guess what- some alcohol's in moderation are proven to lower the risks of these.

As for alcohol causing far more damage than smoking/second hand smoke. I would agree because one individual behaving irresponsibly can destroy much- killing someone, injuring others, leaving people devastated- but that is not the effect of the alcohol that is the inability for an individual to behave responsibly.

However the vast majority of drinkers do not cause a massive negative effect.

Do the vast majority of smokers have an effect on our society or culture or health? And the answer is yes to all three.

I can't say I agree about smoking vs alochol.

I am a restaurant owner and second hand smoking from clients to my staff caused massive health issues not to mention increased cleaning for clothes and so on. Alcohol issues affect less than %1 of my clients. Smoking affected every single one of my clients and staff.

Smoking directly impacts me walking on the street. Smokers seem simply incapable of putting their cigarette butts in the rubbish. Smoking = self destructive behaviour. There is absolutely no gain from smoking at any level.

The same can not be said of alcohol. Yes individuals cause massive issues in NZ because of their own individual inabilities to monitor themselves- but that says more about the individual than the habits they choose.

Smoking has no benefits whatso-ever. Alcohol on the other hand has been proven to aid digestion, medically proven to lower stress, helps with blood pressure and is thought to help in other areas as well, although these may not be so well documented or proven.

Alcohol is a product imbided by the individual that directly affects no one else IF the individual behaves sensisbly.

Smoking is a product used by the individual which directly affects anyone within a twenty foot area, or anyone passing through the area for the next hour.

Yes drunks cause problems- many of them life changing but this is the issue of the individual not the alcohol- many more drinkers have no negative effects on society. Smoking is the choice of the individual and it effects anyone whom is in the area, or passes through the area.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

louise — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 01:16:07 GMT

I think what brass's me off with the whole dope thing Bob is that government put on the face of oh it's an unhealthy substance but yet we have alcohol and cigarettes available.

Truth is government don't know how to tax it and bottom line I think is the only way they can make money off it is by exposing the users' creating a false picture of the actual drug.

When I was single and care free I used it because I couldn't stand alcohol and socially going out sober with social drinkers is somewhat stressful so I would smoke a bit of dope and well had a good time.

My biggest issue with smoking it was the stigma that went with it and well the secretively of it all made it slightly uncomfortable and it was not fun so gave it a miss. Socially I had no substance's after that and well had to rely on my bubbly nature to get me through.

RE: Has NZ Become a Victim culture?

Bob — Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:06:40 GMT

As I'm sure you know marijuana is a big part of New Zealands culture. I'm no smoker (but used to be) and frankly enjoyed it generally. I would not say I was a big time "pot head" but more of a social smoker with friends and family.

I understand some people smoke way to much and I understand it is not good for your health (once again in excess) - but making someone a criminal for smoking it - is just madness!

I don't want my teenage children smoking it - I don't - but if you are an adult - whats the big deal? I'd rather have it sold through the state than allow the gangs make huge tax free profits.

We need to start taking another look at this and start getting real. We just keep sweeping this under the carpet.

I'd love to be able to sit down at the viaduct - having a beer and a cone with friends.